I have seen "Dead Poet's Society" dozens of times, so rather than tell you my feelings about it I think I will pose a number of questions. Feel free to pick up on any one of them -- or more than one. Or, if you are moved, ask and answer your own questions. I will number the questions for your convenience.
1) Nwanda -- punk or hero?
2) Is the suicide glorified in any way? Or do we as readers see that Neil has options and therefore the suicide is seen as rash and misguided?
3) Is the movie, taken as a whole, more celebration or indictment of the carpe diem philosophy espoused by Keating, Whitman, Thoreau, etc.? In the end you have a suicide, a firing, and an expulsion; but you also have self-empowerment (Todd), love (Knox), and a whole bunch of teenagers who are thinking more independently than they were before.
4) Even if we can agree that Keating isn't responsible for Neil's death, does he do anything wrong? Is he blameless?
5) Fun symbolism Department. Birds. At the beginning there is a montage scene of huge flocks of birds rising and turning all together (they're wrens, in case you were wondering). Then there is an immediate cut to the kids going down the circular stairway all together (first day of school), the same directional flow as the birds in the previous shot, bringing out the "flock mentality" of the kids. Later, Knox rides his bike through a huge flock of Canada geese on his way to see Kris jump into the arms of Chet. Upsetting the flock! Also, two scenes of kids walking in the courtyard provide bookend symbols in the movie. First you have Keating encouraging his students to walk to the pace of their own drummer (a Thoreau line!) with the Latin teacher watching from the teacher's lounge above; then, at the end, you have the Latin teacher with his students in the courtyard, walking in unison, reciting something they have memorized, following already made footprints in the snow, with Keating watching from the teacher's lounge above (they wave to one another). If the style of walking is an indication, it's back to normal now in the school.
More later, but this should get you started.
Hi, guys! I’m going to take a page out of Keating’s book and walk to my own beat for a bit… by which I mean bring up a couple of things that I think we should discuss ☺
ReplyDelete“That page has been ripped out, sir.” What a wonderful victory! Though Keating was still going to have to leave the school, this moment, in which Nolan seemed to have lost control yet again, seemed to perfectly conclude Keating’s career at Welton. I really love this quote, partially because it is followed by Robin Williams’ impish smile from the back room of the classroom. More importantly, the ripped pages were a physical reminder that after Neil’s suicide, things at Welton could NOT go back to normal. Keating had impacted the boys’ hearts too much. Unfortunately, the administration of the school didn’t quite understand how deeply the boys had been changed, and tried to get back to business as usual. Just think about that for a second. Can you believe how quickly the students were forced back into the seeming monotony of their schoolwork and oppressed lives? Excuse me for restating the obvious, but I feel it is necessary here… hadn’t a classmate of theirs just chosen to end his life?! As Mr. Harrington mentioned, the Latin teacher and his students seem to represent what I would consider a regression back to old ways at the school. Whatever one’s opinion of Keating’s guilt (or lack thereof), I think it was truly foolish for Mr. Nolan to force the students to face the music in such a harsh manner, as they obviously were not ready to handle it – they’d just lost a dear friend… and a teacher.
Also, I wanted to ask you guys what you thought about Todd’s decision to stand up on his desk as Keating was leaving. Todd had been so reserved throughout the rest of the movie – why was he suddenly “brought… to a boil” in a Whitman-like fashion? (Was it inspired by his “yawp” earlier in the movie?) It seems rather out of character.
Breaking away even further from the questions, I just wanted to say how much I loved Keating’s quote about why language was developed – “to woo women!” Interestingly enough, the two love (well, I’m not sure if it was love or lust in Nwanda’s case…) plots intertwined in the movie both used poetry – language – to eventually woo their love interests.
Emily, to answer your question above about Todd standing on his desk, I feel like I want to do the same at this instant. I'm not lying when I say this, but I felt moved and proud actually. It made me want to stand up for something I truly care about and go against conformity. Although entirely out of character for Todd towards the beginning of the movie, I saw how his character transformed internally, which led me to not be so surprised.
ReplyDeleteAs for whether or not Neil's suicide was glorified or not, I believe it is most definitely glorified but to an extent. Just because I say it is glorified doesn't mean I think it was the right decision; I believe life is the most valuable possession. Whenever someone is debating about suicide, they always have an option to take life over death. In Neil's case though, I don't feel like it was a terrible decision for him because of his situation. He was trapped within the life his father demanded from him. He was always a free soul from the beginning of the movie and I realize he would have been absolutely miserable living a life without his friends and acting. His dream of acting was so short-lived, but it was so satisfying for Neil as well. We see his love for acting when he stands in front of the open window, slowly and carefully placing his wreath around his head majestically. This shows us his confidence and certainty in making the decision to kill himself and gives us a clear reason to feel content about his decision yet still disappointed. After his death, the accumilation of the past events in the minds of Todd and the others of the Dead Poet's Society cause them to stand on their desks out of respect, glorifying Neil's death. It shows the individuality brought out of the students because of Mr. Keating, but especially reminds us of the individuality and energy Neil had about life.
After reading Adams blog, I completely agree with his ideas on Todd standing. It is against his character at the beginning, yes, but this just proves how much of an influence Mr. Keating was to him. By the end of the movie, Todd has changed drastically: when the one boy says that he told the administration what they wanted to hear about Mr. Keating and Todd yells at him, to when he runs out on the snow after hearing of Neil's death. Todd's changes in character are due both to "sweaty-toothed madman" poem and to his new group of friends at the school.
ReplyDeleteAlso on the subject, I thought of another piece of information that somewhat denounces Mr. Keating as the sole cause to the suicide. Neil listened to Mr. Keating. He felt comfortable with Mr. Keating. He even saw Mr. Keating as an role model, starting the "Dead Poet's Society 2.0" after his example. However, the scene of the two in Mr. Keating's room discussing what Neil should say to his father lays out where we can draw the line. Mr. Keating is trying to convince Neil to tell his father his exact feelings on acting, almost use his acting skills to convince his father of his steadfast love for it. However, Neil does not take the advice. By not listening, we realize that although Mr. Keating played a large part in Neil's changes throughout the movie, but he was not the sole cause of the death because Neil didn't completely do everything he told him to.
Question: Does this lady not look exactly like the mother of Neil, except maybe aged a few decades?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_sFLBhevCpnQ/S33FNRsjJJI/AAAAAAAABjY/-Y_gxb3z8fs/s1600-h/Jill+Larson.JPG
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ReplyDeleteQuestion 3!
ReplyDeleteLet me just start by saying I was very impressed with this movie. The most significant part to me was that the ending was completely unexpected. Although the ending was extremely sad, I am glad that we see the true effects of Neil's father and Mr. Keating’s encouragement.
When I read Adam’s blog I felt the complete same way. When Todd stood on his desk I felt some sort of empowerment and want to stand up for something I believe in.
I believe that the movie, as a whole, is celebration of the theory of carpe diem. When the movie opens we see straight set boys in check listening to a speech about their fine school. As the boy are placed in more of a spot light, we start to see the different personalities each of the boys’ uphold. I noticed that boys had something to share but the school limited them to work, discipline, and conformity.
However when Mr. Keaton arrives he breaks the schools mold. As a prior student, Mr. Keating instills some type of connection and trust with his class. From here out Mr. Keating’s teaches them alternative ways of thinking, which include the theory of carpe diem.
Carpe diem is Latin for seize the day. The reason that the movie shows a celebration of this theory is because each one of the main charters learns to embrace it.
Nwanda, who is already outgoing, feels passionate about the newly revamped “dead poets society” and is the only young boy to not break the oath. This sense of seize the days does get him expelled but the his pride proves to be more important.
Knox, the young lover, learns that putting him self out their for the sake of love can sometimes get you where you want to be. His actions were probably most literal to the theory of seize the day.
Todd, the shy boy, also takes the seize the day to a certain level. Although he does not seize the day at every opportunity in the movie, he shows tribute to the theory at the end. When Todd stands up and shows Mr. Keating that he respects him. Todd risked being expelled but with this seize the day feeing in his heart he does it anyway.
Lastly, Neil shows the seize the day. As a smart and hard working boy, Neil spends most of his time pleasing his angry father. But when Neil finds his passion for acting he pursues and proves he can perform extremely well. However, Neil’s passion does to tragedy. But in my opinion this tragedy still shows the celebration of carpe diem. Mr. Keating instilled passion into Neil, and the fact that Neil needed acting to live shows how powerful the theory of seize the day truly is.
Like Molly, I was also very impressed with the movie. Also like Molly and Adam and Marly, I think Todd brought seize the day to life. In my opinion, Todd came the farthest of all the boys. To go from a super shy kid to one who will stand on top of a desk and purposefully defy a teacher, now that takes some guts that I personally don't believe any of the others boys, well except maybe Knox, would have done before Mr. Keating came.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of Mr. Keating... I think he was the catalyst of Neil's death. But, when you think about it, anybody could have been. Anyone in the future who would have helped Neil think for himself, make his own decisions, the person who told him to tell his dad the truth. Mr. Keating helped to guide Neil to his happy place, acting. Mr. Keating told Neil to tell his dad the truth, but when it came to that time, Neil couldn't do it. For that, I would blame his dad. For closing the door to open conversations between father and son(sorry for the cliche). But I think it's true. Neil was so afraid of his dad that he couldn't tell him the truth. Mr. Keating helped the boys learn to seize the day, not to kill themselves.
Mr. Keating showed the boys a world outside of the school. He let them think for themselves and determine their own opinion on matters. Mr. Keating told them to seize the day and for this reason Knox fell in love, Neil stood up to his father and soon after puts himself out of his misery. Nwanda, the arguable hero of the group, leaves no doubt in anybody’s mind that he will seize the day and never again conform to the school's beliefs. Then there is Todd. Todd is Mr. Keating’s example of seeing the world in a new and different way. What more could Mr. Keating ask for? He told the boys to look and see the world in a new way and Todd obviously did. Mr. Keating, in my opinion did for the boys what somebody would hopefully do for each at a later time in life. Maybe in college or in their careers or maybe they would have found out themselves. All Mr. Keating did was show the boys that there is a world outside of the walls of the school and it was about time they started living.
By the way Marly, I totally agree with you. The mom totally looks like the crazy lady in Shutter Island!
Hello Friends!!!!... How’s it going?:)
ReplyDeleteFirst and foremost, I am EXHAUSTED... I just got back from a weekend long regatta, needless to say tonight is going to be an all nighter. I think I should apologize in advance, in case I'm a little crotchety tomorrow? Also, did anyone else notice that Neil’s father had the biggest forehead ever? That thing was a friggin fivehead!!!!!!
No but in all seriousness that movie tackled a major issues, suicide … and I agree with Adam in the sense that suicide is a choice, but I have to admit I disagree with him in the sense that I don’t think Neil made the right decision. After Nwanda’s phone call from God, Keating specifically told them: there is a fine line between seizing the day and making an irrational decision and Neil clearly chose the latter. I was actually pretty disappointed with Neil, he had such a close relationship with Keating and then he goes and does something Keating would never condone, I was also pretty disappointed with Nwanda for not signing the paper in the office. Like Neil, he made an irrational decision, that probably had a negative on his life. The saddest part, though was that they both completely missed the point of carpe die, despite their intimacy with Keating.
Keating never wanted them to do anything life threatening, he just wanted them to capture the small opportunities that would allow them to seize the day. With that being said, I think the only people that follow his advice properly are Knox and Todd. Think about it; Knox got the courage to ask out the girl of his dreams and Todd was the first to stand up on his desk and yell "O Captain my Captain. These are perfect examples of Keating's ideal carpe diem, because they weren't dangerous and the only thing the boys could have lost would have been their self esteem, and that can easily be picked up!
Just curious, how would you rate Keating on the Romantics scale, is he hardcore, like Thoreau, theoretical, like Emerson, or inviting like Whitman?
Ok, so… I want to agree with Asha up north… I definitely think that Todd embodies the idea of carpe diem. He starts out shy, but ends up being the one who stood up for what was right. I feel like the movie as a whole was meant to celebrate this whole idea of seize the day, but it was also meant to demonstrate the extremes that such a philosophy could be taken to. The extreme I would particularly like to discuss in Neil’s suicide (question 2).
ReplyDeleteAlthough I truly don’t believe that killing yourself is any way to solve a problem, I don’t know if Neil would have had many options with such an oppressive father. Then again, suicide doesn’t really solve problems, it creates more for the people around you, and therefore it is selfish. I would have to say that his suicide was incredibly rash and misguided, although his reasons for such actions were somewhat justified, they weren’t necessarily glorified. I can understand his emotional state after having been removed from the one thing at his school that made all of his father’s demands seem less pressing.
He did bring it upon himself though. He had plenty of chances to speak up despite the fact that his father may have not reacted the way he would have hoped. It was one play, if he continued to stand up for himself and justify his reasons; I think his father would have eventually come around.
Honestly, I believe his suicide was just a lame excuse to make his father feel horrible about taking him out of his school. Obviously, the intended purpose of said suicide wasn’t served, because all it did was get Mr. Keating, the one thing that was right in Neil’s life, fired. Had he known the repercussions of his actions, I don’t think he would have done it, hence the reason why it was rash and misguided. In his life, he did so many good things and he blew it all over a play and his father.
I don’t really think that a suicide can ever really be glorified, because if you are like, “oh I am gonna kill myself so others are happy and things will be better for everyone else” that is like “pity party for me”… so it is stupid… and selfish…My main issue here is, why would he do it if he could have had the option the next morning to make everything right with his dad? OH DUH he is rash… I guess he is an overly melodramatic teen… what can I say? I think he needed one of those parker well being assembly things to set him straight!
Wow I just realized how many grammatical mistakes I made
ReplyDelete1) impact should be between negative and life
2) carpe diem NOT carpe die
3) It should be followed and were, not follow and are
In my eyes Nwanda is the character most impacted by Mr. Keatings teachings. His is portrayed as an extremist, radical, and a "punk", but true feelings are rooted in the teaching of Keating, just like the rest of the students. Keating left an impression on each student. For many the short period of Mr. Keatings teaching was a time of great awakening. Although Cameron had already completely conformed to the traditions and disciplines of the school, the other boys had been enlightened. I do not expect most of the boys to become as outlandish and rebellious as Keating or Nwanda and they may not even see eye to eye with their beliefs, however this whole experience stimulated their mind and made them independent thinkers. Although Nwanda has a strange way of showing it, he is enlightened, and is willing to go to every extreme to make his point heard, show the world that he is independent, and to "sound his barbaric YAWP over the roof tops of the world".
ReplyDeleteAlright... To start this off I want to answer Emily's question about Todd. I have to say that Todd's final moment of self-empowerment most definitely brought a tear to my eye. It was moving and completely unexpected from Todd. Like I told Mr.H after class on Friday, Todd had about three lines in the movie before making the most powerful movement in the movie. At the beginning of the movie, Todd started off as a reserved boy staying home to finish homework. Towards the end of the movie, Todd began to embrace "Carpe diem" and seize not only life but his own personal voice. I agree with Asha, Adam, Marly, and Molly when I say that Todd brought "Carpe diem" from a dormant seed in his life to a giant sequoia.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of Mr.Keating and his role in Neil's suicide, I would have to say that he definitely sped up the process although it was not entirely his fault. As obvious from the movie, the boys were placed in a Parker * a million environment. All the boys, we could see were under massive amounts of stress from their parents and teachers. It is very unhealthy for the growing mind. When Mr.Keating came along the boys were exposed to something they had been sheltered from their entire lives, freedom and life. Keating inspired the boys to branch out of their shells and see what can be made of every opportunity. He basically handed them choice. So getting back to the question, did he have a part in Neil's suicide? Yes, yes he did. Keating had gone to the school and knew the environment and attitudes of the boys. In my opinion, Keating should have been more aware of the children he was dealing with and mindful of their attitudes.
Thanks for showing the movie Mr.H, It was great.
The way i see it: MR. Keating is most like Emerson, Nwanda like Thoreau, and Todd like Whitman. Nwanda, like Thoreau, is a little bit of a punk but also a hero. Nwanda likes the ideas of Keating, and uses them as a way of live, "Carpe Diem," instead of using them like guidelines. He talks the talk and walks the walk. He may come of as somewhat of a punk because he is young and immature. In order for Nwanda to convince the others to follow his path, he feels he has to be critical, aggressive and punkish. Thoreau was similar. He criticized society aggressively because that was his style, his way, and he knows people will not change if you give it to them lightly. I agree with Kamron. Nwanda does want to sound his barbaric YAWP because he has been enlightened and wants to show the rest of the world so that they can be enlightened as well. Unfortunately, his punch to society (the "unenlightened" student) got him an expulsion from the school.
ReplyDeleteThere is a lot going on in this film and I am pretty sure I could write for hours about it, but I am going to focus in on one of my ideas, at an attempt to keep my sanity.
ReplyDeleteWords undoubtedly have the most power of anything that I know. Words kill, nurture, insult, welcome, exclude, comfort, terrify. Words are the engine that powers the vehicle of all our emotions. One word could change someone’s life for ever – that concept terrifies me.
Personally, I believe that the main idea of the film was the power of words. The entire movie was driven by a short phrase, Carpe Diem. As the film progressed it became more and more clear how differently each of the boys conceptualized these powerful words and how they affected the way in which they lived their lives. The same two words that allegedly lead Neil to his suicide saved Todd from his own fear and timidity.
This so-called “line” that Charlie crossed by taking the idea of Carpe Diem too far is, for a lack of better words, an impossibility, as it is all about perception. The second words leave you mouth, you release an idea to the world that is no longer in your control. The rest depends on the way others perceive what you are saying and then, how they use it.
Placing blame on Mr. Keating for Neil’s suicide suggests that his lessons, and the words he spoke for that matter, were th5 motive behind Neil’s actions. This theoretically equates Mr. Keating’s words to a murder weapon, thus providing proof for the power they hold.
Haha I definitely appreciate Katie's grammatical corrections.
ReplyDeleteAs it sounds like others were, I was a bit put off by the suicide. It's a strange thing for a movie to create a character that viewers closely identify with, and then have him commit suicide.
Writing in response to Katie's and Karina's ideas about the suicide, I agree that it seemed misguided. But misguided as it was, suicide takes courage, no doubt, and I disagree that it was just to make his father feel bad. Neil felt in pain, and truly believed that there was no hope for the improvement of his condition.
I think suicide is not always selfish, and can be rationalized, but only very rarely. Two cases come to mind: when it is for the best of others, and when a person is suffering, and there is no chance that the suffering will go away.
For the best of others is an extremely rare case. Say perhaps a person has a mental problem, that urges them to physically hurt others, or kill others. If he is aware of his situation, and knows in his mind that it is right, the best way may be suicide.
The next case allows for more interpretation, and therefore may be often misunderstood. If a person suffers intolerably, and there is no hope for future improvement of his condition, then suicide may be a rational choice. In this case, the concept is often given the more attractive name of euthanization. One easy way to think about it is in the case of physical suffering. In the book Johnny Got His Gun, a man is maimed in war - both his legs and arms are gone, along with sense of sound, sight, smell, and taste. He can feel his torso and face, and he can move his neck - that is all. He can think as clearly as ever though, and his mind nearly rots with insanity in the blackness of his world. Near the end of the book, he finally finds a way to communicate with nurses, by tapping out messages in morse code with his head against the pillow. He begs, and the hospital refuses to grant his wish of suicide. I found the message powerful, and applicable to this debate.
Now, apply that idea to the kind of suffering that Neil endures. In his case, there seemed indeed adequate prospect for improvement of his condition. He had many options, he could have temporarily followed his father's path, and looked for a way out along the way. He could have openly defied his father. He could have run away. Or maybe if he's such an actor, he could have faked his own suicide, right? But it seemed that his eyes were opened too quickly to the world. He saw with poetry all that shined brightly and all that is dark, and he became caught up in what is dark.
That is all, friends.
The way that i see Neil's suicide was that he gave up on his life. He saw there was always going to be that struggle between him and his parents for his freedom, and instead of focusing on the future he saw no future. The rigorous school that he attended could be compared to his relationship with his father. His school was a constant struggle that wasn't exactly enjoyable but it was accepted and dealt with. He did not give up ever in school when approached with a difficult situation, so why did he see it okay to give up with his life? I do not understand how Neil saw taking his life was the only solution to his problems in his life. In my opinion life is the most sacred thing that we get, and should be cherished, not thrown away. Neil had great promise with his future, even if he decided not to be a doctor and he should not have done what he did. I do understand the lost feeling that Neil had with his parents. Free will is also very important in life, and feeling that you do not have it is overwhelming. I understand how Neil must have felt trapped yet that still does not justify his suicide.
ReplyDeleteAs for the blame being set on Keating, i find that to be out of left field and harsh. Keating was doing his job as a teacher. This school had a very proper way of being, and this disagreed with Keating's teachings. This opportunity to see a new point of view should have been taken advantage of by the boys in his class. For a second to state this had a negative affect or was responsible for a death is preposterous. Neil put the gun in his own hand and pulled the trigger, plain and simple. Mr. Keating gave the kids a new viewpoint that should have been appreciated and that is all.
I find myself disagreeing with Kristen's view on suicide. I don't believe that suicide takes courage at all. I tend to side more with Erica's views, in that Neil just gave up on life and used suicide as a way out of a difficult situation. If Neil really wanted to do something courageous, he would have continued on living the way he wanted to, despite his father's views. Obviously, that would cause more difficulty within his life down the road, but I still think that would be a better choice than ending your life and therefore ending all of your potential to do something great.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Keating's responsibility in Neil's suicide, I don't believe that he should receive any blame. When a student comes to a teacher for advice regarding problems that the student is having in his/her life, it is that teacher's duty to do everything possible to help that student out. Keating was only doing his job when giving his opinion about what Neil should do regarding his father. Although it can be argued that without Keating's alternate viewpoint, Neil wouldn't have committed suicide, I would have to disagree. Rebelling against overbearing parents isn't a revolutionary idea; Neil would have heard that same advice from someone else down the road. Whether or not he would have committed suicide after hearing the opinion from another person is something we will never know, but Keating can't be blamed simply because he happened to be the person to give him a new outlook.
I'm totally with Kristen on the whole suicide thing; it takes serious guts. But, i don't think that Neil necessarily commited suicide because his life was awful and he couldn't stand it anymore, in fact, if he had simply waited another year or so, he would have been an adult and free to do as he pleased. I honestly think that Neil just let the ideas of romantisism carry him away. He's and actor. and a poet. and a free thinker. Suicide was, in my opinion, his way to make the ultimate statement while making a dramatic exit. Of course his complete frustration with his father played into it, but, lets face it, a great character needs a great exit.
ReplyDeleteNow for Nwanda... first instinct is "punk." the moment he walked into Neil and Tod's room he kind of bugged me, he just had a sort of swagger about him. If Thoroau could have picked a favorite character, this kid would have definitely been IT. I think that Nwanda really did catch his stride, and find his nitch when he discovered poetry, but seriously? I get that he wanted to suck the marrow out of life, but there's such thing as self preservation.
Now onto #3. This movie toootaaallyy celebrated "carpe diem." first of all, whose the good guys here?? Who ends up as better people?? the carpe-diem-ists, thats who. personally, i want to be associated with the young, oppressed poets, not the frumpy fat guy with no hair and a catapillar growing on his lip. but thats just me...